By Lee Shearer | lee.shearer@onlineathens.com | Story updated at 11:20 PM on Monday, March 3, 2008
When Georgia legislators moved to redraw the border with Tennessee last week, they launched a doomed and costly waste of taxpayer money, say professionals and researchers in the arcane field of state boundaries and surveying.
The long-held legal principle is simple, said border expert Louis DeVorsey: The decisive fact is not where surveyors meant to draw the line - it's where people have accepted the line to be over time.
"It's where people adjusted their lives to," he said.
A retired University of Georgia geography professor, DeVorsey wrote the book on another Georgia border dispute - a court battle between Georgia and South Carolina over the exact line dividing their two states.
Apparently motivated by a thirst for Tennessee River water that flows temptingly close to the state's northern border, Georgia lawmakers have called for a new land survey to put the border where the Peach State lawmakers say it ought to be - on the 35th parallel, about a mile north of where it is now.
The actual state line was drawn in 1818 by a joint Georgia-Tennessee survey team led by UGA surveyor and mathematician James Camak.
The survey team's charge was to go into the mountain wilderness between the two states and mark a line along the 35th parallel, the agreed-upon border between the two states. Traveling in rough mountain territory, the team missed the right spot by a mile, according to modern measurements.
But courts have held over and over again in other border disputes that the line everyone follows over time - not the theoretical one - is the legal border, DeVorsey said.
The Georgia-Tennessee dispute legally is no different than if someone builds a garage partly on a neighbor's land. If the garage sits there for 30 years, a court will not make the garage builder tear it down, he said.
Farris Cadle of Savannah, another author and researcher of boundary history, was less diplomatic.
"The whole thing is stupid," Cadle said.
The legislature's move to annex a slice of Tennessee will just replay what's happened before with a lot less publicity, he said.
"Every 20 or 30 years, some bright legislator that doesn't know the background of this situation ... will say, 'Oh, we're missing out on some of our territory,' " he said.
That lawmaker convinces fellow legislators to appoint a boundary commission and hire lawyers; the lawyers look up court rulings that say the boundary can't be redrawn to suit Georgia and then the border war dies - until the next time, Cadle said.
Like others, Cadle believes Georgia legislators are motivated by a thirst to tap into the water that flows in the Tennessee River, just across the state line - but south of the 35th parallel.
But the effort might backfire, he said.
"It's bad enough they're throwing away taxpayer money. It's going to create bad relations with the people of Tennessee," he said.
Virtually no surveyed state line in the eastern United States - and none of Georgia's - is exactly where it originally was meant to be, Cadle said.
Surveyors back then had crude instruments, had to traverse rugged wilderness on foot or horseback and had to worry about hazards like Indians attacking, he said.
Surveyors did the best they could with the instruments they had, said Greg Spies, a professor at Troy State University in Alabama and an authority on the history of state border lines - especially the Georgia-Tennessee line.
"There was no way - absolutely no way - they could accurately put a parallel of latitude on the ground," Spies said.
Spies wrote a scholarly article on the Camak survey expedition four years ago.
Camak wanted to get better survey instruments before he set out to map the Georgia-Tennessee border, but the expedition began before the tools could be shipped from Europe, Camak wrote in 1826, when the surveying discrepancy was first detected.
The instruments Camak took included a sextant made for nautical use - good enough to get a ship to within a mile of land, but not the best tool for accurate land surveying, Spies said.
But the boundaries Camak and his team drew are the ones legally accepted today, he said.
"All those old surveys like that are in error, if you want to look at it like that, but the boundaries are where they are," he said.
And Georgia will lose the border war of 2008, as well, Spies predicted.
"I'm not a betting man, but I'd just about put money on it," he said.
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Published in the Athens Banner-Herald on 030308
http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/030308/news_2008030300238.shtml
Tuesday, March 4, 2008
Thursday, February 14, 2008
"Rural Surveyor" Designation in Alabama
Apparently, the State of Alabama is contemplating creating a new type of surveyor that requires no background in surveying! This new surveyor would be referred to as a "Rural Surveyor". I am not sure how or if we should get involved, but I think we should support our counterparts in the State of Alabama as they fight this bill.
The following is a letter dated February 12, 2008 from Ann M. Galloway, Executive Director of the Alabama Society of Professional Land Surveyors:
The following is a letter dated February 12, 2008 from Ann M. Galloway, Executive Director of the Alabama Society of Professional Land Surveyors:
Feb. 12, 2008
To: All Members of ASPLS
Fr: Ann M. Galloway , Executive Director
Re:House Bill #333 by Rep. Marc Keahey(whose District 65 covers Choctaw, Clark and Washington Counties ) was introduced in the legislature last week.
This bill would amend the BOL law relating to licensure of surveyors. This bill would allow for a "rural surveyor". This type of surveyor would not have to be licensed. This bill would limit the practice of the rural land surveyor to rural areas and municipalities with a population less than 5,000.
We believe that rural areas are just as important as any other to be properly surveyed by a licensed professional land surveyor.
This bill has been assigned to the Board and Commissions Committee.
This is a very bad bill and ASPLS opposes this bill. Please review the bill yourself. For a complete copy of this bill, go to the website of the Alabama Legislature: www.legislature.state.al.us
Select legislation, code & constitution
Scroll down and click on Visit ALISON
On left hand side, click on BILLS
Then BILLs by Sponsor
Under House, scroll down to Rep. Keahey's name, click on his name, then Get bills on the left, scroll down to HB #333.
Click on this bill number, then up in the top red tool bar, click on VIEW, then you can print a copy of this bill.
Also in the red bar, you can click on amendments and history to get a detail about the progress of this bill.
MOST IMPORTANTLY call your Representative today and tell him that you oppose this bill because it is important that boundaries whether rural not should be located by a licensed professional land surveyor.
Ask your representative to oppose HB#333. To reach your representative, call (334)242-7600 and ask for him by name.
If you do not know the name of your legislator, you can search on the legislature website by your zip code to find out who it is.
Please email me back when you make contact to let me know if your representative agreed to vote against the bill when it comes up.
It is very important that you contact your representative now!
Tuesday, February 12, 2008
SJV-CLSA Meeting Announcement - Feb. 21st
The February meeting for the San Joaquin Valley Chapter of the California Land Surveyor's Association will be held next week on Thursday, February 21, 2008, at 6:30 pm. It will not be held this week, on our usual 2nd Thursday of the month. We will meet at our usual place, Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis, CA. Please reply to this message to RSVP for the meeting. We need a minimum headcount of approximately 12 people so that the restaurant can prepare the proper accommodations. (If we get less than that, we may need to move the meeting out of the private banquet room into the front dining area.)
We will have a presentation by John Dodson of SJV Technology on their new software, "The Floodplain Surveyor" (http://www.floodpd.com). John has been developing this software to help surveyors with the task of performing, and completing, the FEMA Elevation Certificates. The software is nearly complete (beta testing) and he is looking for input from the surveying community to "fine-tune" it to a surveyor's real world needs. Come take a look and tell him what you think.
Also of note: Andiamo's raised their large group prices at the beginning of the year. That'll mean a few dollars more for us, but they're not charging us for the room, like most places would, which is a substantial savings for the Chapter. All meals include bread, salad, and a non-alcoholic drink. The full menu that has been offered to us can be found at: http://www.sjvclsa.org/AndiMenu.htm
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Mark Your Calendars -
Thur., Mar 13, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis, CA
Speaker: Crissy Willson of the State CLSA
Topic: CLSA Student Outreach Program
Crissy will give a presentation on the CLSA Student Outreach Program and explain how we can better present the CLSA and the surveying profession to students and the public.
Thur., April 10, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis, CA
Speaker: TBA
Topic: TBA
-----
For more information:
visit the Chapter website at: http://www.sjvclsa.org/
visit the Chapter calendar at: http://www.sjvclsa.org/Calendar.htm
or contact the Chapter President at president@sjvclsa.org
Current Chapter activity, Chapter polls, and links to current trade magazines & articles (updated daily) are posted on the Chapter's (updated occasionally) online blog at http://sjv-clsa.blogspot.com/.
Additionally, the Chapter has an online chat group at http://groups.google.com/group/SJVCLSA available to all Chapter members and those on the email list. (You will need a Google account to post.)
Friday, February 8, 2008
Chapter Meeting Announcement
Our regularly scheduled, 2nd Thursday (Feb. 14, 2008) meeting has been rescheduled to the 3rd Thursday (Feb. 21, 2008). This was to avoid any conflict with Valentines Day, the reservation scheduling of our usual Italian eatery, and any potential scheduling conflicts with the Significant Other.
The February meeting for the San Joaquin Valley Chapter of the California Land Surveyor's Association will be held on Thursday, February 21, 2008, at 6:30 pm, at Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis, CA. We will have a presentation by John Dodson of SJV Technology on their new software, "The Floodplain Surveyor" (http://www.floodpd.com/). John has been developing this software to help surveyors with the task of performing, and completing, the FEMA Elevation Certificates. The software is nearly complete (beta testing) and he is looking for input from the surveying community to "fine-tune" it to a surveyor's real world needs. Come take a look and tell him what you think.
Also of note: Andiamo's raised their large group prices at the beginning of the year. That'll mean a few dollars more for us, but they're not charging us for the room, like most places would, which is a substantial savings for the Chapter. All meals include bread, salad, and a non-alcoholic drink. The full menu that has been offered to us can be found at: http://www.sjvclsa.org/AndiMenu.htm
-----
Mark Your Calendars -
Thur., Mar 13, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis,
CA
Speaker: Crissy Willson of the State CLSA
Topic: CLSA Student Outreach Program
Crissy will give a presentation on the CLSA Student Outreach Program and explain how we can better present the CLSA and the surveying profession to students and the public.
Thur., April 10, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis,
CA
Speaker: TBA
Topic: TBA
-----
For more information:
visit the Chapter website at: http://www.sjvclsa.org/
visit the Chapter calendar at: http://www.sjvclsa.org/Calendar.htm
or contact the Chapter President at president@sjvclsa.org
Current Chapter activity, Chapter polls, and links to current trade magazines & articles (updated daily) are posted on the Chapter's (updated occasionally) online blog at http://sjv-clsa.blogspot.com/.
Additionally, the Chapter has an online chat group at http://groups.google.com/group/SJVCLSA available to all Chapter members and those on the email list. (You will need a Google account to post.)
SJV-CLSA President
Kevin W. Nehring, PLS
mailto:president@sjvclsa.org
http://www.sjvclsa.org
The February meeting for the San Joaquin Valley Chapter of the California Land Surveyor's Association will be held on Thursday, February 21, 2008, at 6:30 pm, at Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis, CA. We will have a presentation by John Dodson of SJV Technology on their new software, "The Floodplain Surveyor" (http://www.floodpd.com/). John has been developing this software to help surveyors with the task of performing, and completing, the FEMA Elevation Certificates. The software is nearly complete (beta testing) and he is looking for input from the surveying community to "fine-tune" it to a surveyor's real world needs. Come take a look and tell him what you think.
Also of note: Andiamo's raised their large group prices at the beginning of the year. That'll mean a few dollars more for us, but they're not charging us for the room, like most places would, which is a substantial savings for the Chapter. All meals include bread, salad, and a non-alcoholic drink. The full menu that has been offered to us can be found at: http://www.sjvclsa.org/AndiMen
-----
Mark Your Calendars -
Thur., Mar 13, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis,
CA
Speaker: Crissy Willson of the State CLSA
Topic: CLSA Student Outreach Program
Crissy will give a presentation on the CLSA Student Outreach Program and explain how we can better present the CLSA and the surveying profession to students and the public.
Thur., April 10, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis,
CA
Speaker: TBA
Topic: TBA
-----
For more information:
visit the Chapter website at: http://www.sjvclsa.org/
visit the Chapter calendar at: http://www.sjvclsa.org/Calenda
or contact the Chapter President at president@sjvclsa.org
Current Chapter activity, Chapter polls, and links to current trade magazines & articles (updated daily) are posted on the Chapter's (updated occasionally) online blog at http://sjv-clsa.blogspot.com/.
Additionally, the Chapter has an online chat group at http://groups.google.com/group
SJV-CLSA President
Kevin W. Nehring, PLS
mailto:president@sjvclsa.org
http://www.sjvclsa.org
Friday, January 18, 2008
Chapter Meeting Announcement - SJV-CLSA & NorCal ACSM
Welcome to 2008 -
The January meeting for the San Joaquin Valley Chapter of the California Land Surveyor's Association will be held on Thursday, January 24, 2008, at 6:00 pm, in the Freedom Room of the Rex Phebus Veteran's Memorial Building, 453 Hughes Avenue, Clovis, California 93612. It will be a joint meeting with NorCal ACSM held in conjunction with the CSUF Geomatics Conference. Bill Henning from the NGS will give a presentation titled "Latest Trends in Real-Time GPS Surveying".
For more information, visit the Chapter website page (http://www.sjvclsa.org/) or these links:
CSUF Geomatics Website: www.csufresno.edu/geomatics/
CSUF Geomatics Conference Information: http://www.csufresno.edu/geomatics/conference/
CSUF Geomatics Conference Schedule: http://www.csufresno.edu/geomatics/conference/speakers.htm
Map to the Conference Site
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Rex+Phebus+Veteran%27s+Memorial+Building%2C+453+Hughes+Avenue%2C+Clovis%2C+California+93612&hl=en
NorCal ACSM: http://www.norcal-acsm.org/
Clovis Memorial District: http://www.clovismemorialdistrict.org/
-----
Mark Your Calendars -
Thu, Feb 14, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis, CA
Speaker: John Dodson of SJV Technology
Topic: "The Floodplain Surveyor" software (http://www.floodpd.com/).
Thu, Mar 13, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis, CA
Speaker: Crissy Willson of the State CLSA
Topic: CLSA Student Outreach Program
Crissy will give a presentation on the CLSA Student Outreach Program and explain how we can better present the CLSA and the surveying profession to students and the public.
For more info, see the Chapter website calendar page. (http://www.sjvclsa.org/Calendar.htm)
The January meeting for the San Joaquin Valley Chapter of the California Land Surveyor's Association will be held on Thursday, January 24, 2008, at 6:00 pm, in the Freedom Room of the Rex Phebus Veteran's Memorial Building, 453 Hughes Avenue, Clovis, California 93612. It will be a joint meeting with NorCal ACSM held in conjunction with the CSUF Geomatics Conference. Bill Henning from the NGS will give a presentation titled "Latest Trends in Real-Time GPS Surveying".
For more information, visit the Chapter website page (http://www.sjvclsa.org/) or these links:
CSUF Geomatics Website: www.csufresno.edu/geomatics/
CSUF Geomatics Conference Information: http://www.csufresno.edu/geomatics/conference/
CSUF Geomatics Conference Schedule: http://www.csufresno.edu/geomatics/conference/speakers.htm
Map to the Conference Site
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Rex+Phebus+Veteran%27s+Memorial+Building%2C+453+Hughes+Avenue%2C+Clovis%2C+California+93612&hl=en
NorCal ACSM: http://www.norcal-acsm.org/
Clovis Memorial District: http://www.clovismemorialdistrict.org/
-----
Mark Your Calendars -
Thu, Feb 14, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis, CA
Speaker: John Dodson of SJV Technology
Topic: "The Floodplain Surveyor" software (http://www.floodpd.com/).
Thu, Mar 13, 6:30pm - SJV-CLSA Chapter Meeting
Where: Andiamo Ristorante Italiano, 1275 Shaw Ave, Clovis, CA
Speaker: Crissy Willson of the State CLSA
Topic: CLSA Student Outreach Program
Crissy will give a presentation on the CLSA Student Outreach Program and explain how we can better present the CLSA and the surveying profession to students and the public.
For more info, see the Chapter website calendar page. (http://www.sjvclsa.org/Calendar.htm)
Saturday, October 27, 2007
Website, Blog & Discussion Group
The Blog is up and running and I've set up a Google Group for the Chapter. Hopefully, this will help us discuss things throughout the month rather than just having a cram session every month at our Chapter meetings.
At this point, the Chapter in online in three places: The website, this Blog, and the discussion group. I'd like to get them all together at some point, but for now, let's just see if they work at all.
My idea for it all is this: the WEBSITE will remain (mostly) as it is, fairly static in nature. It is the Chapter's primary online presence, and will represent the Chapter to the surveying community at large, and the world for that matter. (There are some updates in the works for the website, but they are still a few months away from being presentable.)
This BLOG will be used as more of an ongoing way for the Chapter to present up-to-date information to the Chapter members. Chapter reports & minutes, State reports and other notable information can be posted for the Chapter's review as it happens. The blog also hosts polls for the Chapter members, and information feeds (updated daily) from various trade magazines (POB & American Surveyor) linking to their most current stories. Right now, only the Chapter Officers can post to the blog (that may change), but the Chapter members can post comments to any of the blog posts. The blog is private, for members only, and is not listed on any blog lists, however anyone who navigates to it can read it.
The GOOGLE GROUP is a discussion group to be used by all of the members of the Chapter. We often have good discussions at our Chapter meeting about things that are concerning us as a group (ie.: the blue border discussion), and I've seen those discussion continue in the parking lot after our meeting. This group will be a way for us to contine those discussions with each other thoroughout the month. Any member of the discussion group can post and/or reply. (Please keep the flames to a minimum.) The group is private, for members only, and is not listed on any public group lists, however anyone who navigates to it can read it.
With both the Blog & discussion group, you will need a google account to participate. It is as simple as an email address and a password. I chose Google for a couple of reasons. First, it's free - the Chapter is not being charged for the blog or the discussion group. Second, Google accounts are unbeliveably functional and they're spam free.
I'm not sure how it will ultimately work at this point. I don't expect the Blog & discussion group to replace the website, only to augment and add to it. Time will tell how it all comes togther for everyone. If you have any comments, suggestions, criticisms, etc., let me know. I'll see what I can do.
- Kevin
At this point, the Chapter in online in three places: The website, this Blog, and the discussion group. I'd like to get them all together at some point, but for now, let's just see if they work at all.
My idea for it all is this: the WEBSITE will remain (mostly) as it is, fairly static in nature. It is the Chapter's primary online presence, and will represent the Chapter to the surveying community at large, and the world for that matter. (There are some updates in the works for the website, but they are still a few months away from being presentable.)
This BLOG will be used as more of an ongoing way for the Chapter to present up-to-date information to the Chapter members. Chapter reports & minutes, State reports and other notable information can be posted for the Chapter's review as it happens. The blog also hosts polls for the Chapter members, and information feeds (updated daily) from various trade magazines (POB & American Surveyor) linking to their most current stories. Right now, only the Chapter Officers can post to the blog (that may change), but the Chapter members can post comments to any of the blog posts. The blog is private, for members only, and is not listed on any blog lists, however anyone who navigates to it can read it.
The GOOGLE GROUP is a discussion group to be used by all of the members of the Chapter. We often have good discussions at our Chapter meeting about things that are concerning us as a group (ie.: the blue border discussion), and I've seen those discussion continue in the parking lot after our meeting. This group will be a way for us to contine those discussions with each other thoroughout the month. Any member of the discussion group can post and/or reply. (Please keep the flames to a minimum.) The group is private, for members only, and is not listed on any public group lists, however anyone who navigates to it can read it.
With both the Blog & discussion group, you will need a google account to participate. It is as simple as an email address and a password. I chose Google for a couple of reasons. First, it's free - the Chapter is not being charged for the blog or the discussion group. Second, Google accounts are unbeliveably functional and they're spam free.
I'm not sure how it will ultimately work at this point. I don't expect the Blog & discussion group to replace the website, only to augment and add to it. Time will tell how it all comes togther for everyone. If you have any comments, suggestions, criticisms, etc., let me know. I'll see what I can do.
- Kevin
Thursday, October 11, 2007
The Votes Are In!
The 2008 Chapter Officers for the San Joaquin Valley Chapter of the California Land Surveyor's Associationwere announced at the October 11th meeting.
In no particular order, they are:
Kevin Nehring - President/Treasurer
Robert 'Bob' Greene - Vice President
Brad Luken - Secretary
Ted Kerber - State Representative
James 'JT' Temple - Alt. State Representative/Immediate Past President
In no particular order, they are:
Kevin Nehring - President/Treasurer
Robert 'Bob' Greene - Vice President
Brad Luken - Secretary
Ted Kerber - State Representative
James 'JT' Temple - Alt. State Representative/Immediate Past President
Tuesday, September 25, 2007
Mailings
The Mailing discussed at the September meeting were mailed out today. Included in the packet was a 2008 Membership application and a questionaire/survey. The 2007 membership also was sent a ballot for the 2008 officers.
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